PfaBB Portal update

[Jeff Lewis]

Rumour my ass, you took what I told you in private and are blabbing it

Actually you never told me you were going to charge for it..

[Joline Des`Chats]

My live PfaBB site, if anyone wants to see it  

[irbrian]

Thats a great looking site, except that I have no idea what its about which is in the Top 5 of Things I Hate About Portal Sites..

[[Unknown]]

It's about Lord of the Rings, which I gathered from the title - Lord of the Kings.

Plus it has little rings for the mark read indicators...

-[Unknown]

[mephisto_kur]

Yeah, pretty obvious what that site is about.

[irbrian]

Sure, that was my assumption as well, but the point is that I shouldn't have to make assumptions regarding a website's topic or content. Its not the site visitor's responsibility to guess what the site is about --  its the designer's responsibility to tell them.

Well, unless you don't WANT them to know what the site is about, or it serves some purpose to make them guess. But I don't believe that's the case of this site.

ALWAYS TELL THE USER IMMEDIATELY WHAT THE SITE IS ABOUT -- one of the most important concepts in web design, and one that is forgotten far too often. Again, thats one reason why most portal packages really bug me.

[mephisto_kur]

So... What, we should all have banners at the top that say:

"THIS SITE IS ABOUT THE LORD OF THE RINGS, IF YOU DON'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE LORD OF THE RINGS, YOU ARE PROBABLY IN THE WRONG PLACE.  I AM SORRY I CAN'T BE MORE CLEAR.  PLEASE TALK ABOUT THE LORD OF THE RINGS.  IF MY PICTURE THAT SAYS FELLOWSHIP OF KINGS AND ALL OF THE LORD OF THE RINGS PICTURES AND IMAGES ARE NOT OBVIOUS ENOUGH FOR YOU.  PLEASE DO NOT ASSUME THIS IS ABOUT THE LORD OF THE RINGS BECAUSE I AM TELLING YOU IT IS, INDEED, ABOUT THE LORD OF THE RINGS AND YOU DON'T NEED TO ASSUME ANYTHING."

[Michele]

So... What, we should all have banners at the top that say:

"THIS SITE IS ABOUT THE LORD OF THE RINGS, IF YOU DON'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE LORD OF THE RINGS, YOU ARE PROBABLY IN THE WRONG PLACE.  I AM SORRY I CAN'T BE MORE CLEAR.  PLEASE TALK ABOUT THE LORD OF THE RINGS.  IF MY PICTURE THAT SAYS FELLOWSHIP OF KINGS AND ALL OF THE LORD OF THE RINGS PICTURES AND IMAGES ARE NOT OBVIOUS ENOUGH FOR YOU.  PLEASE DO NOT ASSUME THIS IS ABOUT THE LORD OF THE RINGS BECAUSE I AM TELLING YOU IT IS, INDEED, ABOUT THE LORD OF THE RINGS AND YOU DON'T NEED TO ASSUME ANYTHING."

Ok, assume for a minute the visitor is blind and can't see the images. Their text reader is just spewing out the latest news, with no idea of what that news relates to. Or what if the visitor is colorblind and the images are all shades of blue to him?

It's the webmaster who should never assume anything. Never assume 16bit or 32bit color, never assume the Submit button is clear as day if it doesn't have a name or id, never assume menu buttons are clear without proper alt=, never assume people can tell what is a link and what's plain text. Make sure your site can be easily read by eyes, text readers, colorblind folks, etc.

If you were wondering why all those <caption> tags are showing up in PfaBB, that's the reason. It's why my links are both a different color AND bold, and why I abhore NTS (nested table syndrome).

On specific sites, you can make basic assumptions though. If it's a gaming site, you can be reasonably sure they have a high end video card already, and a relatively fast connection (at least 56K). If you want a real test to see how bad your site might be, trying moving around in it using the TAB key instead of a mouse. Do the tabs follow a logical order, or are you tabbing through 4 nested tables just to get to the first link?

That's part of why it's so important to at least offer an alternative home page to news, if not outright set it as the default.

[irbrian]

It's the webmaster who should never assume anything.

Exactly.

So... What, we should all have banners at the top that say:

"THIS SITE IS ABOUT THE LORD OF THE RINGS, IF YOU DON'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE LORD OF THE RINGS, YOU ARE PROBABLY IN THE WRONG PLACE.  I AM SORRY I CAN'T BE MORE CLEAR.  PLEASE TALK ABOUT THE LORD OF THE RINGS.  IF MY PICTURE THAT SAYS FELLOWSHIP OF KINGS AND ALL OF THE LORD OF THE RINGS PICTURES AND IMAGES ARE NOT OBVIOUS ENOUGH FOR YOU.  PLEASE DO NOT ASSUME THIS IS ABOUT THE LORD OF THE RINGS BECAUSE I AM TELLING YOU IT IS, INDEED, ABOUT THE LORD OF THE RINGS AND YOU DON'T NEED TO ASSUME ANYTHING."

Um... Or (risking the obvious) how about a simple tagline that says something brief but witty about the sites purpose?

Anyway I was trying to offer constructive criticism while making a point.. obviously it isn't appreciated, and it seems my point is not coming across very clearly either. So please feel free to disregard all that I've said on this matter (in this post anyway).

[mephisto_kur]

So... What, we should all have banners at the top that say:

"THIS SITE IS ABOUT THE LORD OF THE RINGS, IF YOU DON'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE LORD OF THE RINGS, YOU ARE PROBABLY IN THE WRONG PLACE.  I AM SORRY I CAN'T BE MORE CLEAR.  PLEASE TALK ABOUT THE LORD OF THE RINGS.  IF MY PICTURE THAT SAYS FELLOWSHIP OF KINGS AND ALL OF THE LORD OF THE RINGS PICTURES AND IMAGES ARE NOT OBVIOUS ENOUGH FOR YOU.  PLEASE DO NOT ASSUME THIS IS ABOUT THE LORD OF THE RINGS BECAUSE I AM TELLING YOU IT IS, INDEED, ABOUT THE LORD OF THE RINGS AND YOU DON'T NEED TO ASSUME ANYTHING."

Ok, assume for a minute the visitor is blind and can't see the images. Their text reader is just spewing out the latest news, with no idea of what that news relates to. Or what if the visitor is colorblind and the images are all shades of blue to him?

It's the webmaster who should never assume anything. Never assume 16bit or 32bit color, never assume the Submit button is clear as day if it doesn't have a name or id, never assume menu buttons are clear without proper alt=, never assume people can tell what is a link and what's plain text. Make sure your site can be easily read by eyes, text readers, colorblind folks, etc.

If you were wondering why all those <caption> tags are showing up in PfaBB, that's the reason. It's why my links are both a different color AND bold, and why I abhore NTS (nested table syndrome).

On specific sites, you can make basic assumptions though. If it's a gaming site, you can be reasonably sure they have a high end video card already, and a relatively fast connection (at least 56K). If you want a real test to see how bad your site might be, trying moving around in it using the TAB key instead of a mouse. Do the tabs follow a logical order, or are you tabbing through 4 nested tables just to get to the first link?

That's part of why it's so important to at least offer an alternative home page to news, if not outright set it as the default.

Thanks for explaining it in a way that makes more sense.  However, there are other options available than having a big bold banner explaing what the site is about that would eliminate the issues you are talking about.  (And we agree on the nested tables problem)

[mephisto_kur]

So... What, we should all have banners at the top that say:

"THIS SITE IS ABOUT THE LORD OF THE RINGS, IF YOU DON'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE LORD OF THE RINGS, YOU ARE PROBABLY IN THE WRONG PLACE.  I AM SORRY I CAN'T BE MORE CLEAR.  PLEASE TALK ABOUT THE LORD OF THE RINGS.  IF MY PICTURE THAT SAYS FELLOWSHIP OF KINGS AND ALL OF THE LORD OF THE RINGS PICTURES AND IMAGES ARE NOT OBVIOUS ENOUGH FOR YOU.  PLEASE DO NOT ASSUME THIS IS ABOUT THE LORD OF THE RINGS BECAUSE I AM TELLING YOU IT IS, INDEED, ABOUT THE LORD OF THE RINGS AND YOU DON'T NEED TO ASSUME ANYTHING."

Um... Or (risking the obvious) how about a simple tagline that says something brief but witty about the sites purpose?

Anyway I was trying to offer constructive criticism while making a point.. obviously it isn't appreciated, and it seems my point is not coming across very clearly either. So please feel free to disregard all that I've said on this matter (in this post anyway).

It certainaly is appreciated.  What seems at issue is that you have a general problem with portals, so no current portal gives you what you want.  You are coming across as not just opposed to portals, but downright snobbish about people that use them.  If this isn't how you feel, I would love it if you could be a bit more "constructive" rather than just "critical" of portals.

Personally, I don't have to wonder what that site is about.  It has Lord of the Ring *everything.*  We also disagree on a fundamental idea.  The user, in my opinion *should* be able to assume without it being spelled out to them.  There are sites (like my own) that are having difficulty with this, for the simple fact that I just don't know what I want other than a community and a place to regurgitate trivia (hence my banner in my sig).

[Michele]

Well, a "big bold banner" wasn't what anyone was thinking. Something more along the lines of what C4G's home page looks like now. It could be flashier, or better written, but it tells you exactly what PfaBB is, so you're not left wondering, or being forced to read half the forums just to figure out what's going on.

Which is why a News-only home page is a bad idea. Unless you sticky a "whatsit" news item right up on top, folks can't always figure out what the site is just by reading the home page... and if they can't figure it out, they usually go no further.

HTH, Michele

[Shoeb Omar]

and yet another example of how to get off topic very quickly .

[Jeff Lewis]

Heh as a test (purely for fun), I asked my mother in law to visit that site and take a look around....she says "What is this site for?"

Nobody is saying slap a gigantic banner on there and nobody has to do what people suggest - keep it friendly people

[irbrian]

It certainaly is appreciated.  What seems at issue is that you have a general problem with portals, so no current portal gives you what you want.  You are coming across as not just opposed to portals, but downright snobbish about people that use them.  If this isn't how you feel, I would love it if you could be a bit more "constructive" rather than just "critical" of portals.

I'm truly sorry, I did not realize I was coming across as snobbish over this. It is no secret that I don't like portal software, but I shouldn't have attacked someone's personal site just to demonstrate my views.

Well, a "big bold banner" wasn't what anyone was thinking. Something more along the lines of what C4G's home page looks like now. It could be flashier, or better written, but it tells you exactly what PfaBB is, so you're not left wondering, or being forced to read half the forums just to figure out what's going on.

Which is why a News-only home page is a bad idea. Unless you sticky a "whatsit" news item right up on top, folks can't always figure out what the site is just by reading the home page... and if they can't figure it out, they usually go no further.

Anyway, yeah, throwing aside my anti-portal prejudice, I really really like how the C4G handles this issue. And not because its long or anything, just because it has a friendly little piece that basically says 'Hi, welcome to my page, this is what its about, here's the basic stuff you may want to know about why its here, no go explore and figure the rest out for yourself.' Even if all it said was "PfaBB, a new portal system to be used with YaBB SE!" I'd be thrilled.

YaBBSE.Org does the same thing. This is the ideal in my humble opinion. Other people disagree and thats ok, I'm just stating my personal view on this.