Quote from: Mad Moya on January 23, 2003, 03:10:22 PMirbrian, I see your point, and I'm right there with you on the separation of code and style, but programmers then run into a problem.
Indeed, but perhaps it is time someone address that problem and do it right the first time.
QuoteMost of what is presented is information from a database. And since each presentation is using different tables/fields, it's impossible to remove the <table> tags from some of the code. Well, not impossible if you write code in the "template" to create them on the fly, but not practical to cover all situations.
Unless the application is designed that way from the ground up..
QuoteA well designed table, used for this purpose is actually preferable to people visiting a site with various impairments (visual, aural, mobility) because information is presented in an expected manner and their speech readers or alternative input devices know how to find their way around a table.
Agreed, so shouldn't the software allow the designer to develop his site that way? Seperation of duties, I say -- let the programmer supply the means and the leave the designer to do his job unhindered.
QuoteAnd since the data is different on nearly each page, each table needs a certain amount of styling built in (left align that column, center that one, <th> here, <th> there, etc). Therefore the table ends up inside the code instead of outside it.
Not at all. All scenarios can be handled with nestable templates. People were preaching about the wonders of CSS earlier -- a system based on nestable templates allow them to stretch this power to its limits (wherever they truly lie) by style-classing every element on the page individually.
Nestable templates can run into some efficiency problems, but.. there is a solution to
every problem..
QuoteWith that said, I think most forums and portal packages out there go way overboard with tables... to the point it impairs accessible access to a site (confusing input devices with nested tables for instance). A table is a structural layout tag, not a "let's have cool borders" layout tag, and nested them 3 deep for various effects is not the way we should be doing it.
I used tables as an example, but it's not the only offender of imbedded html, just the worst one. When they hard code their style classes into them, it gets worse.
Agreed again..
QuoteOTOH, portals are designed for folks to get their site up and running with minimal fuss. If someone wants complete control over style in every page of a site, then they probably also know enough css/stylesheet to do it themselves and avoid the portal packages in the first place.
Absolutely!! Which is why I have always maintained that portals have their place. Portals serve a very important function in the great "circle of web design!"
But they are only one part, they are not THE solution to web development, or design.
QuoteIf someone makes a portal that gives you complete control over every aspect of style, you end up confusing the newbies, make it overly complicated for the average person, and only really make the "I want complete control" folks happy. And you lose a larger market share than if you made a few key decisions for them instead.
The trick is to find the happy medium. Since most of these packages are GPL, we try to appeal to the larger market. I'm sure if you offered to pay someone, they'd be more than willing to custom write a portal for you.
Best not make a portal then, eh? Best turn to something else -- like.. say.. I Have It! -- a really intuitive and flexible CMS.
QuoteI for one, am doing my best to get rid of NTS (Nested Table Syndrome) in whatever I write.
For which I thank you from the bottom of my heart, and I mean that sincerely.
Nested tables have their place -- but for solidarity of structure, not so much for visual design.
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